Dear brother, greetings to you in Christ!
You know, I am an Orthodox and that automatically makes it impossible for me to stand neutral.
If I may ask --- Why does a Bible-believing Christian want to reject Christian Tradition? I wander.
The Church preaches the Scriptures (which were handed to us by the Apostles) as well as unwritten Apostolic Traditions (once again handed to us by them). The Church vehemently opposes the "traditions of men" which do not have Apostolic foundation or cannot successfully be traced to their roots all the way 2000 years back - where everything started. She however preserves the "Traditions of the Apostles". For us Christians, nothing shall be new, and nothing shall be noble. Christianity is a 2000 years old story, and there can be nothing brand new and fresh about it. Everything that you see shall necessarily feel like from a far past. I am so very sorry if it doesn’t at the first glance seem readily appealing for a stranger, but that’s what Christianity is – a 2000 years old classic treasure.
I greatly appreciate your reverence to Scriptures which makes you and us the same. Scriptures have the eternally truthful words of God deserving the ultimate devotion we could ever have to anything – I mean since they are the direct words of Lord our God. However, Scriptures aren’t the only tools God used for revelation to mankind. In fact, the Apostles taught us now and again and again and again to hold on to the traditions that t.h.e.y. t.h.e.m.s.e.l.v.e.s. handed to us. -- 2 Thess. II:15 "Therefore, brotheren! Stand firm and hold to the [Scriptures only? No … it said the] .t.r.a.d.i.t.i.o.n.s. that you have received from us, whether by .w.o.r.d. of mouth or by our epistles."
In fact, St. Paul the Apostle was a persistent enthusiast of “Holy Tradition” taught within Christ’s Church. Elsewhere, he thanks Christians of Corinth saying --- "I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all things and hold fast to the [guess what …] t.r.a.d.i.t.i.o.n.s. [paradoseis] just as I delivered [paredoka, a verb form of paradosis] them to you" -- I Cor. XI: 2 This is the Holy Spirit inspiring one of His Apostles telling us to hold traditions which can viably make their case by showing Apostolic authorship. This is what the Orthodox Church refers to when it speaks of Tradition.
The traditions you see in the One True Church of Christ are those which She is entrusted with by them – and ultimately by Christ. It was delivered personally by Him to the Apostles through all that He said and did, which if it were all written down, "… the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25). And the Church remained the custodian of that knowledge being the repository of the treasure. In fact, this is the reason why we Orthodox Christians claim that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Only she can prove an uninterrupted, successive inheritance of teachings from the Apostles … historically and logically. Nobody else can, not Luther, not Calvin nor Zwingli - only the One, Holy, Universal, Apostolic Church, which is Orthodox before God.
The Church has kept throughout history three things. 1. Scriptures, 2. Holy Traditions and 3. Cannons passed by Apostolic authority and design. You cannot take any single one of these and throw the rest, they all go together and that’s how the passing of our salvation to generations is designed by God. Jesus offers the salvation through the Church He established to be “the pillar and ground of all truth.” I remember asking a protestant once what he thinks is the pillar and foundation of truth. He was so quick and confident to reply “the Holy Bible! ... That’s the pillar and foundation of all truth!” And I asked him to read I Tim. III: 15 and 16 loud and guess what it says ... The Church is “… the pillar and foundation of Truth”. Jesus preferred to establish a Church to be the primary way how one can hear and partake the Gospel story of salvation He performed and the Ethiopian Church has made it its mission throughout history.
I have to disagree in what you said the Church teaches about Mary. In the Orthodox faith, Mary does not have a position which can in any way be paralleled with Jesus. We are talking about our Lord here – the author of all creation and no one and nothing can be compared to him in any standard. Mary is His creation in as much as She is His mother. However, we the Orthodox acknowledge the emphatically important role our Lady Mary was given in the salvation work of Christ by bringing forth Him that have cleansed us of our sins and redeemed us by grace.
How much ever challenging it may be for a stranger to understand what the Scriptures say about Her, It is a solid truth that the Scripture tells us that Mary is the true Ark of the Covenant greeted in the New Testament as David did in II Samuel VI (Luk. I: 43), the Second Eve where the beginning of new creation happened (Gen.III: 15 cf John. II: 4), the Queen of Heaven and Earth seen by John (Rev. XII) and many more. I do not expect this to be an easy assignment to you, but I would like to exigently warn you, that you have to spend enough time on any Christian subject before you conclude in any way and take things for granted.
You should not, as many Protestants do, base your arguments on false historical accounts to present facts as if the Church gone corrupt and was forced off trail at a certain period in history. Particularly, Protestants claim that the Church was manipulated and altered by kings or emperors and lost all its Jesus-texture sometime in 2nd or 3rd century and started to worship Mary, and worship icons and saints, and to teach that Christians can work through their salvation etc. I tell you firmly, my brother that it is many who claim these things but nobody can do more than claim this and provide historical grounds or proves to support this. Nobody can, be it in the Protestant sphere or elsewhere, nobody can prove that the Church that Jesus set up was altered and destroyed and lost or any stuff like this. More than anything, the Church has the promise of Christ our Savior that “… the gates of hell shall not prevail over her.” Matt. XVI: 18.
Protestants simply fail to consider that the whole Church history begins in the 16th century when a bunch of ‘Christ-lover’ and ‘Bible-adorer’ reformers stood up to renew the Church and “bring-it-back” to its 1st century state -- is an absurd rationale. None of them considers for one second that if the Church lost its ways all those 16 centuries then Christ wasn’t successful keeping his promise when he said “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt. XVI: 18 If one comes and tells me everything went perfectly nice from the Apostle on wards for a little while and suddenly, the Church lost it all for this and that, I simply call him nothing but blasphemous – and that is because, Jesus gave us his word – that he will be “… with us always, even unto the end of the world” Matt. XXIIX: 20. And there’s absolutely no way how it may just suddenly disappear … like just banish for 1500 years until Luther comes and saves the day for Jesus.
So, you see here that the very idea of reforming the Church is an abject scandal which demonstrates a supreme form of insult to Christ and does not represent a true justice. Many times, protestants waste their times articulating how to attack their own created versions of artificial doctrines than directly try to refute the doctrine of the Church as they are (as you did in your comment a couple of times – If you write more, I am sure you’d commit more and more of these caricatures). Protestants don’t even take time to analyze what the Church does really teach on the subject. For example, they clash “worshiping Mary” what they think is the Orthodox Church teaches than refute “revering Mary” what She actually does teach.
Most Protestants have in their skulls their own creation of “the orthodox church” which they proudly go out on the internet and try some insults to humiliate. But as I said, it’s just their own creation – nobody takes time to civilly share with them what it is that the Orthodox Church really teaches to help them to calmly try to figure out where it erred. Nobody tells them that the Orthodox Church believes Christ is the only way to the Father without whom we cannot know God – and at least show them from Scriptures the nature and character of reverence she gives to any Godly things according to Scriptures. Instead, anyone who takes the initiative to speak to them about the Church, proudly tells them that She is simply a ‘mary-worshiping’ and ‘candle-lighting’ idolatrous Anti-Christ. Let me give you a piece of advice which you may use not only in trying to refute our teachings but also to correctly understand for the sake of the salvation of your own soul.
And that is – “Find the best of our arguments for why we believe what we believe – try to figure out where we made the mistakes – and share it civilly with us.” If you ask me, I would sign with eleven fingers that the Orthodox Church would be absolutely irrefutable when approached civilly; but at least you would appear a sane person on the internet. At the moment, I didn’t get the blessing to find any one Protestant who tries refuting the exact teachings of Mother Church themselves thus, none of you can be taken seriously or be justified in any of your refutations.
I only wish that Lord gives patient continuance in well doing to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness. Rom. II: 7 - 8
Glory to Christ our Lord and our only true God - Amen!
You know, I am an Orthodox and that automatically makes it impossible for me to stand neutral.
If I may ask --- Why does a Bible-believing Christian want to reject Christian Tradition? I wander.
The Church preaches the Scriptures (which were handed to us by the Apostles) as well as unwritten Apostolic Traditions (once again handed to us by them). The Church vehemently opposes the "traditions of men" which do not have Apostolic foundation or cannot successfully be traced to their roots all the way 2000 years back - where everything started. She however preserves the "Traditions of the Apostles". For us Christians, nothing shall be new, and nothing shall be noble. Christianity is a 2000 years old story, and there can be nothing brand new and fresh about it. Everything that you see shall necessarily feel like from a far past. I am so very sorry if it doesn’t at the first glance seem readily appealing for a stranger, but that’s what Christianity is – a 2000 years old classic treasure.
I greatly appreciate your reverence to Scriptures which makes you and us the same. Scriptures have the eternally truthful words of God deserving the ultimate devotion we could ever have to anything – I mean since they are the direct words of Lord our God. However, Scriptures aren’t the only tools God used for revelation to mankind. In fact, the Apostles taught us now and again and again and again to hold on to the traditions that t.h.e.y. t.h.e.m.s.e.l.v.e.s. handed to us. -- 2 Thess. II:15 "Therefore, brotheren! Stand firm and hold to the [Scriptures only? No … it said the] .t.r.a.d.i.t.i.o.n.s. that you have received from us, whether by .w.o.r.d. of mouth or by our epistles."
In fact, St. Paul the Apostle was a persistent enthusiast of “Holy Tradition” taught within Christ’s Church. Elsewhere, he thanks Christians of Corinth saying --- "I praise you brethren, that you remember me in all things and hold fast to the [guess what …] t.r.a.d.i.t.i.o.n.s. [paradoseis] just as I delivered [paredoka, a verb form of paradosis] them to you" -- I Cor. XI: 2 This is the Holy Spirit inspiring one of His Apostles telling us to hold traditions which can viably make their case by showing Apostolic authorship. This is what the Orthodox Church refers to when it speaks of Tradition.
The traditions you see in the One True Church of Christ are those which She is entrusted with by them – and ultimately by Christ. It was delivered personally by Him to the Apostles through all that He said and did, which if it were all written down, "… the world itself could not contain the books that should be written" (John 21:25). And the Church remained the custodian of that knowledge being the repository of the treasure. In fact, this is the reason why we Orthodox Christians claim that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Only she can prove an uninterrupted, successive inheritance of teachings from the Apostles … historically and logically. Nobody else can, not Luther, not Calvin nor Zwingli - only the One, Holy, Universal, Apostolic Church, which is Orthodox before God.
The Church has kept throughout history three things. 1. Scriptures, 2. Holy Traditions and 3. Cannons passed by Apostolic authority and design. You cannot take any single one of these and throw the rest, they all go together and that’s how the passing of our salvation to generations is designed by God. Jesus offers the salvation through the Church He established to be “the pillar and ground of all truth.” I remember asking a protestant once what he thinks is the pillar and foundation of truth. He was so quick and confident to reply “the Holy Bible! ... That’s the pillar and foundation of all truth!” And I asked him to read I Tim. III: 15 and 16 loud and guess what it says ... The Church is “… the pillar and foundation of Truth”. Jesus preferred to establish a Church to be the primary way how one can hear and partake the Gospel story of salvation He performed and the Ethiopian Church has made it its mission throughout history.
I have to disagree in what you said the Church teaches about Mary. In the Orthodox faith, Mary does not have a position which can in any way be paralleled with Jesus. We are talking about our Lord here – the author of all creation and no one and nothing can be compared to him in any standard. Mary is His creation in as much as She is His mother. However, we the Orthodox acknowledge the emphatically important role our Lady Mary was given in the salvation work of Christ by bringing forth Him that have cleansed us of our sins and redeemed us by grace.
How much ever challenging it may be for a stranger to understand what the Scriptures say about Her, It is a solid truth that the Scripture tells us that Mary is the true Ark of the Covenant greeted in the New Testament as David did in II Samuel VI (Luk. I: 43), the Second Eve where the beginning of new creation happened (Gen.III: 15 cf John. II: 4), the Queen of Heaven and Earth seen by John (Rev. XII) and many more. I do not expect this to be an easy assignment to you, but I would like to exigently warn you, that you have to spend enough time on any Christian subject before you conclude in any way and take things for granted.
You should not, as many Protestants do, base your arguments on false historical accounts to present facts as if the Church gone corrupt and was forced off trail at a certain period in history. Particularly, Protestants claim that the Church was manipulated and altered by kings or emperors and lost all its Jesus-texture sometime in 2nd or 3rd century and started to worship Mary, and worship icons and saints, and to teach that Christians can work through their salvation etc. I tell you firmly, my brother that it is many who claim these things but nobody can do more than claim this and provide historical grounds or proves to support this. Nobody can, be it in the Protestant sphere or elsewhere, nobody can prove that the Church that Jesus set up was altered and destroyed and lost or any stuff like this. More than anything, the Church has the promise of Christ our Savior that “… the gates of hell shall not prevail over her.” Matt. XVI: 18.
Protestants simply fail to consider that the whole Church history begins in the 16th century when a bunch of ‘Christ-lover’ and ‘Bible-adorer’ reformers stood up to renew the Church and “bring-it-back” to its 1st century state -- is an absurd rationale. None of them considers for one second that if the Church lost its ways all those 16 centuries then Christ wasn’t successful keeping his promise when he said “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt. XVI: 18 If one comes and tells me everything went perfectly nice from the Apostle on wards for a little while and suddenly, the Church lost it all for this and that, I simply call him nothing but blasphemous – and that is because, Jesus gave us his word – that he will be “… with us always, even unto the end of the world” Matt. XXIIX: 20. And there’s absolutely no way how it may just suddenly disappear … like just banish for 1500 years until Luther comes and saves the day for Jesus.
So, you see here that the very idea of reforming the Church is an abject scandal which demonstrates a supreme form of insult to Christ and does not represent a true justice. Many times, protestants waste their times articulating how to attack their own created versions of artificial doctrines than directly try to refute the doctrine of the Church as they are (as you did in your comment a couple of times – If you write more, I am sure you’d commit more and more of these caricatures). Protestants don’t even take time to analyze what the Church does really teach on the subject. For example, they clash “worshiping Mary” what they think is the Orthodox Church teaches than refute “revering Mary” what She actually does teach.
Most Protestants have in their skulls their own creation of “the orthodox church” which they proudly go out on the internet and try some insults to humiliate. But as I said, it’s just their own creation – nobody takes time to civilly share with them what it is that the Orthodox Church really teaches to help them to calmly try to figure out where it erred. Nobody tells them that the Orthodox Church believes Christ is the only way to the Father without whom we cannot know God – and at least show them from Scriptures the nature and character of reverence she gives to any Godly things according to Scriptures. Instead, anyone who takes the initiative to speak to them about the Church, proudly tells them that She is simply a ‘mary-worshiping’ and ‘candle-lighting’ idolatrous Anti-Christ. Let me give you a piece of advice which you may use not only in trying to refute our teachings but also to correctly understand for the sake of the salvation of your own soul.
And that is – “Find the best of our arguments for why we believe what we believe – try to figure out where we made the mistakes – and share it civilly with us.” If you ask me, I would sign with eleven fingers that the Orthodox Church would be absolutely irrefutable when approached civilly; but at least you would appear a sane person on the internet. At the moment, I didn’t get the blessing to find any one Protestant who tries refuting the exact teachings of Mother Church themselves thus, none of you can be taken seriously or be justified in any of your refutations.
I only wish that Lord gives patient continuance in well doing to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness. Rom. II: 7 - 8
Glory to Christ our Lord and our only true God - Amen!
አስተያየቶች
አስተያየት ይለጥፉ